Bullets 101

[The Librarian]

Now this is a subject I was waiting for. I just didn't feel like typing it up myself.

There are definitely a lot of people that think they can dodge bullets, I can't stress 'a lot' enough on this one.

I will admit that Siege has a tendency to do the same thing, but I actually have my reasons thought out on this one.

First off, Siege is fast, extremely fast, I could elaborate even more on how fast he is. That however is not the real key behind his habit of dodging bullets, or his other habit of just shooting them out of the air.

Dodging bullets
The way I have this figured out for my character is more based on his senses than his speed. Yes his speed plays a very important part, but his senses are what allow these acts to happen.

The first principle is, if you know where the bullet is going to be then don't be there. For those of you who have watched the movie Next, you kind of have an idea of what I'm talking about. If you haven't there's an example in the trailer at about a minute 40.
youtube.com/watch?v=vb9_BHZ2VXM&feature=related

I'm not saying that Siege can see the future. . . not saying he can't either but that's not what's involved here. He uses all of his senses to figure out where the bullet is going to be and where he has to be to get out of the way, or where his bullets have to be to intercept those bullets.

His brain functions extremely fast, like a supercomputer taking in all of the data and computing where the bullet will be while the person is aiming and about to fire the gun. By the time the trigger is pulled, he already knows where to move and has already started.

His senses ;sight, hearing, touch, taste, and scent are highly tuned to or past the point of any animal alive. Those aren't his only senses though. Thermo sense similar to many reptiles, echolocation similar to bats and marine mammals, scent through taste similar to snakes, scent through water similar to sharks, electromagnetic sense similar to many predators, and many other senses. The basic gist is if some animal has that sense so does he because that is the way he's designed. He takes in information from all those senses to figure out what needs to be done to deal with the gun.

When it comes to shooting bullets out of the air, he has to rely on figuring out where the bullets will be and comparing that to the speed of his own weapon. His favorite guns are a dual pair of extremely advanced rail-gun pistols. These hit speeds much faster than traditional guns, which along with his own speed allows him to put his own bullets into the air in the path of the oncoming bullets.

Of course, not everyone is like Siege, but this is how I handle things.

[baane]

Or you can simply make a conscious attempt to remain outside of the weapon's cone of fire before the weapon is discharged. Most realistic and sensible way to do it.

[Kain]

Anyone ever see Equilibrium?

Basically, there are these badass police officers called Clerics who are trained in the art of Gun Kata. They're basically preset gestures and positions which minimize the chance of hit by a bullet during different circumstances. In the right order, one can literally dodge bullets while firing back.

In the movie, it's been done with single and double assault rifles along with single and dual pistols.

[The Librarian]

I've seen parts of the movie, it's badass

[Fenris]

that is quite a good movie, but i have a question, if heightened senses come into play, in conjunction with gun kata, isnt it possible to somewhat "predict" the trajectory of the bullet based on the direction the person is firing and the short chemical reaction that takes place before the gun is fired? I know this is impossible IRL but it seems a little unfair to introduce guns and bullets when IRL its pretty much impossible to dodge them unless the persons aim is off, so there have to be some credible defenses aside from the obvious "Body armour" or "force field" or w/e.

[baane]

Assuming by "heightened senses" you're referring to bolstered senses which humans possess, and not some "get out of jail free card" sixth sense which you can write off as doing anything you want:

Sight: The only visual queue of the chemical reaction taking place is the muzzle flash or, if using such as revolvers with a gap between the chamber and the barrel, the flash that spills out of the side of the weapon. This is not a reliable indicator of where the bullet is headed specifically other than judging what general direction the bullet itself was fired from. After the bullet leaves the muzzle there are many factors which dictate trajectory outside of the shooters' control.

An exception is if they are using tracer ammunition which is trailed by a burning chemical so the shooter himself can see where the bullet is going. However, as I said in my opening post, a bullet from any moderately sized rifle is going to cover the typical combat range in TK so quickly that it makes the notion of consciously seeing the bullet and then moving appropriately to dodge it silly.

That is, of course, unless they do not cite bullet speed. In this case it's their failure for not giving enough data in their attack because it's perfectly reasonable to assume that the gun fires sub-sonic ammunition which, while still stupid to consciously dodge, is a little more believable.

...but then, this is The Keep.

Smell: I suppose if you can smell lead for some odd reason this could conceivably tell you something. Your sense would have to be incredibly strong, though. Hell the bullet may even outrun its smell. I do not know the mechanics of this.

...but then, this is The Keep.

Touch: Well, if you're touching the bullet, you've already been hit so the whole point of using senses to dodge the bullet is void. It's not impossible to claim that your character feels the vibrations in the air, but you still have the issue of having so little time to actually move. Even then trying to judge where the bullet is specifically moving by the vibrations in the air themselves is going to be less than precise. I believe this is the system they use in DBZ (other than the whole 'saiyans have skin of steel' thing, which apparently makes them immune to everything which leaves a lot unanswered for.)

...but then, this is The Keep.

Taste: Well, erm, if you're tasting the bullet something went wrong.

...but then, this is The Keep.

Hearing: Probably the most likely and easily understood method which is constantly employed in television. The problem with this technique is that the bullet itself (assuming that the person is using a rifle. People who use pistols as their primary weapon system are either not expecting to get in a fight, or are completely retarded) is moving faster than the speed of sound which makes hearing it before it gets to its target not possible.

You and I also had a fight about the heightened hearing issue of guns, Wolfprince, so you know where I stand on it.

...but then, this is The Keep.

As to Equilibrium: As good of a movie as it was, it has little to nothing to do with the realistic mechanics of a bullet. Discussion of Gun Kata would be better suited to its own thread outlining a discipline for the use of guns. It is not for everyone, however – it is highly unrealistic, shows a lack of respect for the weapons themselves, is unnecessarily reckless with your own life and the life of others, and generally makes the half-way decent firearms role-players look like a bunch of redneck weaboo morons.

…but then, this is The Keep.

[Fenris]

Heightened senses, such as hearing would be hard to predict the incoming trajectory of a bullet, however if it was me I would be relying on the mechanism, because when a gun fires, there is of course a click before hand which causes the bullet to fire, which is how I would personally predict gun fire, also as far as a sixth sense, well it can seem cheap, and it probably deserves its own thread, but the way I use it is similar to spidermans "spider sense" though the mechanics are different. It relies on a mixture of the normal heightened senses coupled with an uncanny and unaturally attuned "instinct" (similar to how animals can predict danger such as dangerous weather patterns, body language, and maybe even spirits.) Thus it is not precognitive in nature but is more of a subconcious reasoning that his physical body automatically reacts too, its not fool proof and things such as counters can find ways to get around it.

[baane]

Sept 20, 2008 20:54:03 GMT -7 Fenris said:

Heightened senses, such as hearing would be hard to predict the incoming trajectory of a bullet, however if it was me I would be relying on the mechanism, because when a gun fires, there is of course a click before hand which causes the bullet to fire,

The bullet would have already crossed the gulf and hit the target by the time any sound after the physical act of pulling the trigger was heard. This is, as stated before, assuming a 100m range which is already much further than most fights which take place in TK.

How are you defining 'advanced hearing?' The ability to hear muffled sounds more clearly, or the ability to, for some reason, 'pull' sound waves towards yourself faster?

As far as a sixth sense, well it can seem cheap, and it probably deserves its own thread, but the way I use it is similar to spidermans "spider sense" though the mechanics are different. It relies on a mixture of the normal heightened senses coupled with an uncanny and unaturally attuned "instinct" (similar to how animals can predict danger such as dangerous weather patterns, body language, and maybe even spirits.) Thus it is not precognitive in nature but is more of a subconcious reasoning that his physical body automatically reacts too, its not fool proof and things such as counters can find ways to get around it.

Yes, well, you know how I feel about your brand of sixth and hightened senses so I don't think we need to get into that here.

[The Librarian]

I'm not going to go into the rest of Seth's senses here since they don't apply to everyone. I will however add what I use that others could benefit from.

Most of the normal senses are useless for dodging a bullet. If however you can see the person before they fire, and have a very mathematic brain, you stand a decent chance of calculating probable trajectories for the bullet once fired.

Any knowledge of the specific firearm being used can serve to heighten your prediction.

Granted there are other factors even after the bullet leaves the barrel, but if you have already decided probable paths for the bullet you do your best to stay out of those paths and hope it doesn't stray from them.

I find instinct works really well for dodging things. At the speeds here instinct works faster than conscious thought. Think back to times something has been thrown at you and you have seen the thrower ahead of time. Whether or not you were conscious of it you already had an idea of exactly where the object would fly once released.

I've heard this referred to as assumed flight path and have experienced it myself in moments where my hand seems to be directed by some other mind into catching an object before I even have a chance to realize it was coming my direction.

side note, I think I will set up a Gun Kata thread when I get a chance unless someone else wants to.

[Fenris]

Theres also other factors, such as where the person is pointing the gun, and probability. Siege is right, instinct is prob the most useful factor you can use to dodge since it does work quicker than concious thought, as for hearing, well according to baane a bullet would already be well on its way by the time the sound of it leaving the barrel, but im assuming since the bullet needs a reaction to leave the barrel in the first place it has to give some sort of warning even if its so breif that the bullet automatically makes the sensory information obsolete, however this is where prediction and instinct come in. As for Sieges gun kata idea, well it sounds good, but number one is there really such thing? and number 2 would you know how to explain it practically?

[baane]

Instinct only matters for dodging bullets if your character is fast enough to move out of the flight path in less than a tenth of a second. Saying that calculating the trajectory of the bullet is a reliable means of dodging it is just plain silly. There is an essence of randomness and deviation based on powder loads, shooter skill, the gun itself, etcetera. Most characters in The Keep should be dropping a load in their pants from the very sound of a gun firing. Let’s face it - firearms are not common in The Keep, and not many characters are from genres where firearms are common. Even fewer are so well studied concerning firearms that they can calculate the trajectory of any given cartridge out of any given gun without being a metagaming POS.

Jason Baane is a gun nut, as I am in real life. He's also a bit of a thinker in combat and can rapidly calculate formulae. But seriously, subconsciously predicting the mathematical trajectory of a bullet based on windage, direction, distance, cartridge, caliber, shooter breathing frequency, and weapon condition? Come on - if your character can honestly do that then what’s' the point, and why are you taking such an interest, Siege?

[The Librarian]

Sept 25, 2008 3:18:28 GMT -7 baane said:

if your character can honestly do that then what’s' the point, and why are you taking such an interest, Siege?

I'd like to direct your attention to the second post in this thread

[baane]

Yeah, and the only thing I got out of your post after reading it is:

lol guns

Which leaves me to wonder why you're so interested in the mechanics of firearms. Clearly, you've contrived methods for your character to trivialize them. So what's the point? What are you trying to prove?

[Fenris]

The point is that a gun must give some sort of warning before firing, even if its not from the gun, the truth is if a character sees a gun pointing at him he cant very well "dodge" the bullets but he should have a chance to get the hell out of dodge and use a more broad approach such as rolling on the floor, back flips, using cover w/e.

[baane]

A back flip really isn't a good dodge for any non-choreographed attack but I see your point.

It's not hard to say that your character sees the knuckles on the firer's trigger finger tensing provided two things:

Your character knows enough about guns to interpret such a thing as operating the weapon, which most characters in The Keep simply would not.

It's a 'hand' weapon rather than a 'shoulder' weapon. Shoulder rifles typically have one hand forward of the trigger hand supporting a barrel shroud or other furniture. This in most cases blocks view of the trigger finger if you're both facing one another.

Also note that the shooter cannot auto you. The bullet is no longer 'his' once his post ends. It's entirely legit to just state that the bullet strikes the ground around you or otherwise misses. Keep in mind that this is cheesy and comes off as moderately insulting if the shooter took time to specify preparation for things such as windage and trajectory variables. Saying the bullet misses becomes more and more probable if you're dealing with someone who calls shots to specific body parts like the head. Soldiers are trained to shoot for the center of mass for a reason - it's the easiest location on the body to hit, it has a number of vital organs, and it has a good chance of dropping the target with the first hit.

I'm not going to get into the realm of the natural and supernatural means of defeating firearms and their ammunition because it's every bit as likely that the round itself has been blessed or otherwise designed to defeat magic. In fact, this has become pretty much the norm for effective firearms role-players in The Keep because they know that otherwise there are simply too many ways to contrive an otherwise impenetrable defense against shells no matter what the mass or velocity.